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	<title>Comments on: Taking Sides</title>
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	<description>Adopt, Scale and Succeed with Agile Development</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Jackson</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5716</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 17:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5716</guid>
		<description>I was listening to a recent This American Life Podcast and it made me think about this post.  The Podcast was about NUMMI (Episode #403) and how Toyota introduced their production ideas to GM back in the 80s, but it has taken forever for GM to adopt the Toyota paradigm across the entire company. The story of NUMMI, Toyota and GM seems so relevant to the Agile Revolution.   According to the podcast GM has been losing market share for the last 50 year and Toyota eventually replaced GM as the largest car manufacturer.  GM had a lot of reliability issues and was inefficient in production in comparison to Toyota, who at the time was considered quite efficient and reliable. The New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant was a joint venture between Toyota and GM where they shared ideas on production processes.  Any software developer who has been part of a large software development organization probably has spent time throwing products over the wall to the next step in the assembly line and has fallen victim to the many pitfalls that come with the Waterfall cycle.   The circumstances of the development lifecycle that the GM crew faced were very similar. 

One of the biggest challenges for me when I discuss Agile concepts with peers in the large corporate environment is the stonewall that is built up that prevents change.  I think this story of NUMMI and the decline of GM is a story that most people can relate too and will help shed light on the big picture.  In some ways software development is a very young field where we are still finding best-way practices.  Certain fields have had decades of time to develop best practices.   As developers we are given expectations in most cases by people who are not familiar with the software development process to turn out products quickly and with minimum defects, but yet through contract negotiations we are placed into environments that use  strategies like the Waterfall because in the past that is how it was done and the customers can relate to it.  I am probably preaching to the quire about the benefits of agility when it comes to software development, but I think this podcast is great because so many similarities can be drawn between the production of cars and the production of software.   

According to the podcast GM knew that the techniques of continuous improvement at NUMMI was a winner, but they couldn’t replicate it elsewhere because among other various reasons they didn’t have the entire company buying into the Lean process and consequently the groups within GM that were trying to be Lean were not supported in the same way by the non-Lean groups.  It is an interesting case study.  For anyone who wants a good overview of NUMMI this podcast is really great.  

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was listening to a recent This American Life Podcast and it made me think about this post.  The Podcast was about NUMMI (Episode #403) and how Toyota introduced their production ideas to GM back in the 80s, but it has taken forever for GM to adopt the Toyota paradigm across the entire company. The story of NUMMI, Toyota and GM seems so relevant to the Agile Revolution.   According to the podcast GM has been losing market share for the last 50 year and Toyota eventually replaced GM as the largest car manufacturer.  GM had a lot of reliability issues and was inefficient in production in comparison to Toyota, who at the time was considered quite efficient and reliable. The New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant was a joint venture between Toyota and GM where they shared ideas on production processes.  Any software developer who has been part of a large software development organization probably has spent time throwing products over the wall to the next step in the assembly line and has fallen victim to the many pitfalls that come with the Waterfall cycle.   The circumstances of the development lifecycle that the GM crew faced were very similar. </p>
<p>One of the biggest challenges for me when I discuss Agile concepts with peers in the large corporate environment is the stonewall that is built up that prevents change.  I think this story of NUMMI and the decline of GM is a story that most people can relate too and will help shed light on the big picture.  In some ways software development is a very young field where we are still finding best-way practices.  Certain fields have had decades of time to develop best practices.   As developers we are given expectations in most cases by people who are not familiar with the software development process to turn out products quickly and with minimum defects, but yet through contract negotiations we are placed into environments that use  strategies like the Waterfall because in the past that is how it was done and the customers can relate to it.  I am probably preaching to the quire about the benefits of agility when it comes to software development, but I think this podcast is great because so many similarities can be drawn between the production of cars and the production of software.   </p>
<p>According to the podcast GM knew that the techniques of continuous improvement at NUMMI was a winner, but they couldn’t replicate it elsewhere because among other various reasons they didn’t have the entire company buying into the Lean process and consequently the groups within GM that were trying to be Lean were not supported in the same way by the non-Lean groups.  It is an interesting case study.  For anyone who wants a good overview of NUMMI this podcast is really great.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi" rel="nofollow">http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi</a></p>
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		<title>By: Scrum 4 You &#8212; You must do full Scrum!</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5631</link>
		<dc:creator>Scrum 4 You &#8212; You must do full Scrum!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5631</guid>
		<description>[...] [2] Alan Atlas, Taking Side [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [2] Alan Atlas, Taking Side [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scrum 4 You &#8212; Volles Scrum ist gefragt!</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5630</link>
		<dc:creator>Scrum 4 You &#8212; Volles Scrum ist gefragt!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5630</guid>
		<description>[...] [2] Alan Atlas, Taking Side [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [2] Alan Atlas, Taking Side [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Cury</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5565</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Cury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5565</guid>
		<description>Certainly people are the most complex variable and come with various education, training, experience and personal preferences.  It does, in fact, boil down to management practice and influence.  Self Organization is certainly a preferable activity but it needs to be monitored and controlled minimally to ensure the proper mix of capability within a team and to monitor the need over time to allow team changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly people are the most complex variable and come with various education, training, experience and personal preferences.  It does, in fact, boil down to management practice and influence.  Self Organization is certainly a preferable activity but it needs to be monitored and controlled minimally to ensure the proper mix of capability within a team and to monitor the need over time to allow team changes.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Atlas</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5564</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Atlas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5564</guid>
		<description>Hello Martin,

Agile allows great latitude when it comes to the mechanics of process, as does Lean. What it does seem to require, however, is a different context surrounding people. And I&#039;m not really talking about specific projects. I&#039;m more talking about the management and people context. If you want to do Agile and you treat it as a simple set of practices, like an exercise regimen, then you won&#039;t get it right and you wont&#039; get all of its benefits. If you want to do waterfall or some other method that is primarily a set of practices, then you can certainly do it and you can mix them. What is most difficult to do is to change the human context when  you change the practices. 

It&#039;s just not likely that self-organization will be supported in a context where command&amp;control is used freely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Martin,</p>
<p>Agile allows great latitude when it comes to the mechanics of process, as does Lean. What it does seem to require, however, is a different context surrounding people. And I&#8217;m not really talking about specific projects. I&#8217;m more talking about the management and people context. If you want to do Agile and you treat it as a simple set of practices, like an exercise regimen, then you won&#8217;t get it right and you wont&#8217; get all of its benefits. If you want to do waterfall or some other method that is primarily a set of practices, then you can certainly do it and you can mix them. What is most difficult to do is to change the human context when  you change the practices. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just not likely that self-organization will be supported in a context where command&#038;control is used freely.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Cury</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5563</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Cury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5563</guid>
		<description>I never believed that one process or method fits all and while there is considerable latitude within each approach, you are still shoe-horning specific contexts into one mold. Instead, I believe you can&#039;t be prescriptive.  This belief however doesn&#039;t support anarchy.  I believe you use the proper method or combination of methods for the situation or context at hand.  It is driven by the stakeholders - customer sponsor, customer development - contractor development, etc.  Agile has a valuable place but we shouldn&#039;t conform to prescriptive practice if other environmental situations contra-indicate its absolute use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never believed that one process or method fits all and while there is considerable latitude within each approach, you are still shoe-horning specific contexts into one mold. Instead, I believe you can&#8217;t be prescriptive.  This belief however doesn&#8217;t support anarchy.  I believe you use the proper method or combination of methods for the situation or context at hand.  It is driven by the stakeholders &#8211; customer sponsor, customer development &#8211; contractor development, etc.  Agile has a valuable place but we shouldn&#8217;t conform to prescriptive practice if other environmental situations contra-indicate its absolute use.</p>
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		<title>By: Pawel Brodzinski</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5562</link>
		<dc:creator>Pawel Brodzinski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5562</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree. This is big oversimplification and I&#039;ve seen many counter-examples.

I know a lot of organizations which work in mixed project environments. Companies which deliver projects both agile-way and old-school-way. If these projects don&#039;t interfere with each other and people are allowed to follow principles they believe in I see no problem. And, believe it or not, many companies work this way.

Another example is working on agile projects where client (and management) requires some high-level commitments regarding schedule, price and scope. Whether the project will be a healthy agile one or just agile-in-the-name-only depends on management approach and practices the organization employs. Agile doesn&#039;t say &quot;you&#039;re forbidden to prepare project plan.&quot; If you&#039;re able to create reasonable project plan, and you should know how to do it if you use reliable estimating techniques, I don&#039;t see how it makes you non-agile.

And coming even further, you can live in completely bureaucratic organization where process is the king and you can still cut off a bit of it and replace it with a piece of agile. One of my favorite Scrum stories is the one from local branch of Motorola. This office is known to follow dramatically bureaucratic process (stories about 1 day of coding followed with 2 weeks of documenting aren&#039;t very rare there), but some agile enthusiast were able to implement regular Scrum in one team and achieve better results then before. I wouldn&#039;t say them they aren&#039;t agile only because their managers believe in formalized process and their organization isn&#039;t agile to the last bit.

I can agree that the agile team should be fully agile - you can&#039;t have a team leader who doesn&#039;t really get this whole agile thing and enforces the old process on the rest of folks. This doesn&#039;t work that way. But as far as there&#039;s commitment within the team and it is possible to build a reasonable interface with the rest of the organization simulating behaviors expected by both sides it can, and most of the time will, work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree. This is big oversimplification and I&#8217;ve seen many counter-examples.</p>
<p>I know a lot of organizations which work in mixed project environments. Companies which deliver projects both agile-way and old-school-way. If these projects don&#8217;t interfere with each other and people are allowed to follow principles they believe in I see no problem. And, believe it or not, many companies work this way.</p>
<p>Another example is working on agile projects where client (and management) requires some high-level commitments regarding schedule, price and scope. Whether the project will be a healthy agile one or just agile-in-the-name-only depends on management approach and practices the organization employs. Agile doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;you&#8217;re forbidden to prepare project plan.&#8221; If you&#8217;re able to create reasonable project plan, and you should know how to do it if you use reliable estimating techniques, I don&#8217;t see how it makes you non-agile.</p>
<p>And coming even further, you can live in completely bureaucratic organization where process is the king and you can still cut off a bit of it and replace it with a piece of agile. One of my favorite Scrum stories is the one from local branch of Motorola. This office is known to follow dramatically bureaucratic process (stories about 1 day of coding followed with 2 weeks of documenting aren&#8217;t very rare there), but some agile enthusiast were able to implement regular Scrum in one team and achieve better results then before. I wouldn&#8217;t say them they aren&#8217;t agile only because their managers believe in formalized process and their organization isn&#8217;t agile to the last bit.</p>
<p>I can agree that the agile team should be fully agile &#8211; you can&#8217;t have a team leader who doesn&#8217;t really get this whole agile thing and enforces the old process on the rest of folks. This doesn&#8217;t work that way. But as far as there&#8217;s commitment within the team and it is possible to build a reasonable interface with the rest of the organization simulating behaviors expected by both sides it can, and most of the time will, work.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Atlas</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5561</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Atlas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5561</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

Interesting idea, and one which I&#039;ve never considered. What if a self-organizing team chooses a waterfall process? I suppose it&#039;s possible. I want to think about that some more. 

Still, that case is the flip side of the case I was trying to discuss, which is the one where the benefits of agility are desired. What I was saying is that you don&#039;t get all the benefits without self-organizing teams, and that it&#039;s hard to have both self-organizing teams and command&amp;controlled (we really need a better phrase than that) teams under the same management.

alan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>Interesting idea, and one which I&#8217;ve never considered. What if a self-organizing team chooses a waterfall process? I suppose it&#8217;s possible. I want to think about that some more. </p>
<p>Still, that case is the flip side of the case I was trying to discuss, which is the one where the benefits of agility are desired. What I was saying is that you don&#8217;t get all the benefits without self-organizing teams, and that it&#8217;s hard to have both self-organizing teams and command&amp;controlled (we really need a better phrase than that) teams under the same management.</p>
<p>alan</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Atlas</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5560</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Atlas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5560</guid>
		<description>Hi Skip,

I agree. Takes more language to include this case when you&#039;re writing, but I think in really large companies it is possible for this to happen within a business or a division. 

Good point.

alan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Skip,</p>
<p>I agree. Takes more language to include this case when you&#8217;re writing, but I think in really large companies it is possible for this to happen within a business or a division. </p>
<p>Good point.</p>
<p>alan</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/2010/03/taking-sides/#comment-5559</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 06:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rallydev.com/agileblog/?p=4507#comment-5559</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, Alan. I have a minor quibble with this one statement:

&#039;&quot;We’ll never be totally Agile in this company. There will always be waterfall projects.&quot; I smile because what that really means is that they’ll never be Agile at all.&#039;

I believe you are mixing up two separate points. One point is about the structure of a project, the waterfall being a planned project with all steps mapped out up front. The other point is about agility and fostering self-organizing teams. The implication is that the former is incompatible with the latter.

This isn&#039;t inherently the case. Some projects work well when organized along waterfall lines, because it is possible to plan all the steps up front in a reliable fashion, and organize the work efficiently. These projects may not often need to be very adaptive, because the work is predictable. 

This is a separate issue from whether the company fosters self-organizing teams. They may do this, and still organize a project along waterfall lines, because this makes sense for that project.

So the company may be totally agile and have waterfall projects. I suspect this happens fairly often, but perhaps less often in the software industry than (say) painting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Alan. I have a minor quibble with this one statement:</p>
<p>&#8216;&#8221;We’ll never be totally Agile in this company. There will always be waterfall projects.&#8221; I smile because what that really means is that they’ll never be Agile at all.&#8217;</p>
<p>I believe you are mixing up two separate points. One point is about the structure of a project, the waterfall being a planned project with all steps mapped out up front. The other point is about agility and fostering self-organizing teams. The implication is that the former is incompatible with the latter.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t inherently the case. Some projects work well when organized along waterfall lines, because it is possible to plan all the steps up front in a reliable fashion, and organize the work efficiently. These projects may not often need to be very adaptive, because the work is predictable. </p>
<p>This is a separate issue from whether the company fosters self-organizing teams. They may do this, and still organize a project along waterfall lines, because this makes sense for that project.</p>
<p>So the company may be totally agile and have waterfall projects. I suspect this happens fairly often, but perhaps less often in the software industry than (say) painting.</p>
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